Denis Brosnan - winner of the Agricultural Trust's John Mooney award for an outstanding contribution to Irish agriculture

Denis Brosnan is a legend in Irish business. He was the driving force behind the transformation of Kerry Co-op into a multi-national food and ingredients Group. Since he retired from Kerry Group in 2002, he has continued to play a leading role in the development of the Irish Horseracing industry into a world leader. As well as private equity interests, he now chairs Barchester Healthcare, a rapidly growing player in what he calls the "care" business. They will shortly open their first Irish facility, at Trim in County Meath.

Two weeks ago, the publishers of the Irish Farmers Journal, the Agricultural Trust, selected Denis Brosnan for the John Mooney award recognising an outstanding contribution to Irish agriculture.

At the awards presentation, which was attended by Minister for Agriculture Mary Coughlan, Denis Brosnan explained why he retired from Kerry in 2002.

"It was case of I couldn't take it at the pace that I felt it needed to be taken. Like the footballer or hurler whose legs aren't moving as fast as they should anymore, it was time to move on."

To mark that award, Brosnan agreed to a rare interview. Having always devoured with enthusiasm anything written by him or about him, I felt privileged to meet him at his beautiful Croom House Stud in Co Limerick. He was generous with his time and hospitable.

Six years on from his Kerry days, Brosnan admits that when he is working, he works as hard as ever. The only difference today is that he travels shorter distances - to London and Geneva predominantly.

Horses remain a consuming passion. As well as his chairmanship of Horse Racing Ireland (HRI), Brosnan runs a thriving thoroughbred breeding operation on his own farm. I was surprised that, despite his considerable wealth, he treats it like any other business. "That's a commercial business - this place has to pay the wages," he said.

He breeds for the top end of the flat market, with customers from Japan, the USA and Europe, as well as Ireland. Like any breeder, he admits that breeding a Derby winner is the dream. "Group 1's aren't good enough for us any more," he laughs.

Ground staff ensure that Croom House stud is beautifully maintained in character with the historic surrounding landscape. Time and money has gone into restoring the house and adjoining lands to their former glory.

We sat into the jeep and travelled the few miles to the outside farm. It sits on a limestone outcrop, so horses grazing February grass make little impact on the surface. At the time of purchase in the some years ago, Joe Harte from Teagasc was asked for cattle husbandry advice. He advised against demolishing any of the buildings. The old barns have been restored and converted into stables. The thatch roof has been maintained on the dwelling house. Passers-by now regularly stop to take photographs.

The farm has slatted accommodation for 200 cattle but non-existent margins in winter finishing saw it left idle last winter for the first time. Someone suggested he throw out the slats and convert it for horses, but Denis Brosnan is reluctant - things may change and he would hate to get rid of the slats only to need them again. On the farm, as in business, bad decisions are to be avoided.

Ironically, the Kerry man moved to Croom in 1986 for convenience to Shannon airport. The recent decision of Aer Lingus to pull out of the Shannon-Heathrow route has inconvenienced Brosnan and the region considerably.

In keeping with his roots, Denis Brosnan does not engage in high profile displays of his personal wealth. He has a fine Mercedes car but drives himself. He has expanded his bloodstock business recently to include a stud farm in Kentucky, USA. He said the value available was impossible to resist; 450 acres of stud railed land with superb facilities and seven houses for $4.5m. About a third of his horses are now kept there.

During my three-hour visit with Denis Brosnan, we spent an hour in his glass walled office and later toured the stud farm. Not once was he disturbed by a call and he did not carry his mobile phone. His office staff Mary and Patsy beavered away in downstairs office.

Neat bundles of reading material sat on the desk, part of preparation for a series of meetings in the days ahead. He stresses the importance of focusing on the task in hand.

He told me of the importance of "staying mentally and physically fit". It shows in his appearance. At the start of our interview, a florescent light flickered annoyingly on top of the wall. He was quickly up balancing delicately on the armrests of a chair to solve the problem.

He's nothing if not capable.

The following is the full, unedited transcript of the interview with Denis Brosnan recorded at Croom House Stud on Monday, 25 February, 2008. The edited version was published in the Irish Farmers Journal, issue date 8 March, 2008.

Copyright, Irish Farmers Journal.

• Pat O' Keeffe: "You must have been proud to get the award

Denis Brosnan: It was great to get the award - it is almost a memory of the time I spent in agriculture and the dairy industry and it was great to be remembered.

• POK: At the awards ceremony, you talked about "putting Kerry on the map" as being a driving force. Can you elaborate on that?

DB: That would have been it, certainly. There were a number of stages to Kerry. If we start in 1972, maybe in the early stage it was a little bit of surviving, more than anything else, getting milk processing facilities going. Than as we moved into the '80's, we certainly started putting kerry on the map. Initially in an Irish context when we proved we could do things other than milk, such as the purchase of Dennys - still a great brand name today - Duffys of Hacketstown, moving into consumer foods. In the mid 1980's, going to the USA and getting established there and suddenly realising we were as good if not better than any of the competition around us.

It's interesting that one of the people that went there, Stan McCarthy, is now back 22 years later as Managing Director of the Kerry Group.

• POK: Moving to the USA and acquiring Beatreme was pivotal in setting you on the road to international growth

DB:

I suppose it was a very brave move to do it. You can always look back five, ten or twenty years later and say `wasn't it the obvious thing to do' but it was bravery at the time. Some people actually predicted that it would be the downfall of Kerry, that we had bitten off too much. But we weren't stuck in there very long when we suddenly realised that we were as good and after a little while we were better than the competition. From there we certainly got the confidence to go and do a whole lot of other things.

• POK: That progressed with gradual steps into new markets

DB:

It was Beatreme brought the markets. Not alone did it have plants in the USA and Canada market, but the the Beatrice organisation was an international global group. The subsidiary Beatreme had either agents or relationships in many markets throughout the world. So it brought us to South America, to Asia, the Middle East and there were either joint ventures or agents in all those countries. I think nobody realised that when Kerry bought Beatreme, we paid $135m but there was only $35m of assets. We were paying $100m for the brands, for the goodwill, for the science that they had created over the years. What might have looked foolish at the outset, proved invaluable in the long term. Kerry never looked back. That gave Kerry access to the Americas, as well as Japan, where Beatrice had a joint venture. Access to Taiwan, where it had a very strong agency and the same in Australia and New Zealand. It brought Kerry everywhere around the world.

• When you went into new countries and new companies, was there a system of putting in Kerry people almost immediately?

Well, the system was brought upon us by circumstances as well. Kerry didn't have a lot of money. It had changed from a co-op, which obviously didn't have a lot of money, to a plc in 1988. It still didn't have a lot of money - the first share raising for the plc was £3m, so that doesn't take you very far. Even for the purchase of Beatreme, we raised at that time, £20m, so we never had an abundance of cash. We were always on the look out to buy companies that we thought were way undervalued and with a huge amount of effort, that we could make a lot of money on them. So that brought the whole concept of Kerry recruiting very good graduates from the Universities, training them and turning them loose on a whole range of, perhaps, run down companies.

• You put relatively young graduates into positions of responsibility

Oh yes. I think I saw where Stan McCarthy came back at 49, so go back 22 years, Stan was 27 when he was sent to America with Finbarr O' Driscoll, who was a few years older. In today's world, these people would have looked very young - we didn't think they were very young at the time.

• You obviously saw those people develop while they worked for you. Was it a case that you say those people as having the capability to grow?

We used a concept of coaching in a huge way. I suppose I spent my life coaching, because I would travel the world and meet, not just the people sent out from Kerry, but all the nationalities that were working for us. So I coached and so did every senior person in the organisation. We were all the time pushing the young people as far as they could go and being there to help them when they needed advice.

• Obviously you were selecting people who had the ability to develop and deliver?

Yes, I always use the phrase `what was important was to stop people from making mistakes'. On the one hand we used to push them as far as they could go, to get on with making decisions and running the show, and saying just check back when you have to. Check back to prevent you from making a mistake. That's where the trust developed between a lot of the senior people who were back in Ireland and the younger people travelling the world. A lot of the younger people were very much out on their own. We can think of places far more remote than Chicago, USA. You just sent them off and they had to make decisions on the spot and know when to check back and know when to get on with things. The same concepts hold good today.

• The budgeting process must have been key to that?

There was no doubt Kerry has some of the best systems. We were well ahead of all industry that time with our Information technology (IT) systems. It was not just budgets, but weekly and monthly reporting of nearly everything that was important. Monthly accounts versus budget etc. That was all centralised through very good technology back into Tralee. By the middle of every month or even earlier we would know exactly what was happening in every location.

• How often would you aim to visit those people around the world?

I think it's well known that I was there an awful lot. I spent 30 years travelling the world. Being in a country or not being in it didn't mean I was back in Ireland - I was somewhere else. I spend the whole time travelling and coaching, getting close to the people on the ground in each country.

• In recruiting people, what attributes were you looking for?

Kerry so big, they all had to be very different. Everything from the skilled people in accounting and IT systems and who might be located in Ireland, to the people who more than anything else would just pack their bag and go. I suppose one of the key criteria was are you prepared to travel with Kerry, wherever you get posted around the world. It would be exceptional to recruit someone who was not prepared to travel - they would have to bring a key skill, because 80% of what Kerry is global, so you must be out there.

• Was a "can do" type of attitude important?

Yeah, "can-do" is great provided you have great discipline at the other side. You don't want somebody taking wild flutters, particularly when you are a plc. We have seen what some of the wild flutters have done in banking over the last few months.

• When you travelled Denis, I presume you were always on the look out for potential acquisitions, new trends and so on?

It was always acquisitions. All the potential acquisitions were convened back to Tralee and a complete list was maintained; the ones that were up close and achievable and the ones that we might acquire two years or three years hence. They seldom moved off our computer screens, unless we decided, this one doesn't suit and we walked away. We always had a big pipeline of acquisitions in many parts of the world.

• Were you watching for new trends to see where the industry was going?

Of course. We were the leader in ingredients, so not alone were we looking out for new trends, we had to be at the forefront or probably ahead of them at times. Maybe what made life a bit easier for us was that we crept on the big players very quickly and became one of the top fur or five ingredient companies worldwide.

• In the food industry today, we have dramatic changes in commodities

Well, commodities are back in vogue. We know that agricultural land is being used for biofuels, taking away from the land available for food production. I think I saw the chairman of Nestle commenting last week that there might not be enough land around to grow food if we kept pushing it towards biofuels. That has driven the commodity market. We'd all want to be careful. Commodities have been there before, at hugely hyped and inflated prices. Every time we've seen that, we've seen the crash in commodity prices a few years later. So for farmers and others, they should make hay while the sun shines, but not to bet the house on it.

• Dairy farmers are being told that prices won't go back to previous levels - you are telling farmers be cautious?

I told think they will ever go back to the level they were at, but you must remember in Ireland, dairy prices have been stagnant for seven or eight years. It's been efficiency on farms and the EU Single Payment that have kept the system alive. Farmers are beginning to make money out of dairy, beef and other commodities again, but it's not a long term solution.

• Would you think it's a good time to be a farmer in terms of the outlook?

Yeah, there's a great few years in it. One has to get the rewards during those years, but what happens with any commodity price when it becomes too high, there will be scientists there looking for the substitute. Prior to our time of buying Beatreme, I remember milk had been highly priced. Beatreme were the first not just develop but also to drive on the concept of coffee whiteners. Prior times, you always put milk in your coffee. Then we entered an era where was some casein used and everything else was non-dairy based. There will always be replacements once prices become too high.

• Many farmers have invested off farm in recent years. What is your view on farmers buying apartment blocks in Berlin, for example? Is it a wise strategy to diversify the asset base?

Yes I think it is a wise strategy. I'm not sure what city you would buy your apartment block in, but I would certainly be suggesting that you use the cash you generate in the good years, but think in terms of spreading the risk.

• Land prices here are way out of line with the returns from farming. Isn't it factors outside of farming that are driving that?

Land prices are crazy. We are farmers in the first instance, even though we farm thoroughbred horses and dry cattle. Land in this area laid out for cattle is making €25,000 per acre. You have to turn it into a stud farm after that, with all the usual railing and roads etc. It takes it up to a huge price.

What has happened is that development land continues to grow. Development land in the old days was in the cities. Now it's in every village in Ireland. People who are entering farming now are not just developers, they are people who want farm land maybe as a hobby, but certainly as recreation. They are very few full time farmers competing with those land prices.

• That is a trend that is likely to continue with increased wealth in Ireland?

The view is that land is scarce and once a country starts to develop hugely, the land starts becoming more scarce. There are many people who take a view that if there is land to be bought, we might as well buy it, and leave it there for another generation, it's not going to get cheaper.

• That puts a certain pressure on farmers planning to expand. Won't it be a huge impediment to dairy expansion, for example?

Quota expansion is one thing, but we have seen a huge change in dairying, starting with the numbers of dairy farmers. What we have seen in the last ten years is the movement towards commercial farming and others who rely on a Single Payment from the EU. Younger dairy farmers getting started, I think will not be relying on the EU like their parents. They will either be able to make a living out of it or they won't do it at all.

• Do you think Ireland is well placed internationally for dairy expansion?

Yeah, Ireland is well placed, but well placed is one thing. Ireland is well placed within the EU, we have the moderate climate, we can produce milk off grass. But we shouldn't get carried away - there's a whole Continent of South America still to open up. New Zealand is still there. Ireland is well placed within the EU. As long as restrictions remain in place that don't allow for free trade in dairy products, Ireland is fine. If free trade becomes part of the next reform of the CAP, then all of Europe suffers and of course Ireland will suffer proportionately as well.

We are well placed in commodities, but not in branded products?

We still have all the old problems that we all know about. A significant number of farmers that were involved in year round production have gone back to seasonal production to produce milk off grass and close down for the months of November and December.

• That was an issue when you were in Kerry

In Kerry, we gave up the concept of year round production earlier than anyone else. We said there's no point pushing farmers into significant winter production, the margins aren't there. For Kerry it was easier we could buy the milk, casein or cheese in other parts of the world where it was readily available twelve months of the year.

• From an industry point it limits the product mix

It will always limit us. It has been talked about close to 40 years ago when I started in Golden Vale, having year round production. There is a time when someone has to say, look it's not on, it doesn't suit Ireland, it's not the way farmers can maximise their incomes.

The big exporters - The Dairy Board, Glanbia, Kerry - they trade in so many countries, they get get milk products in other countries when it is not produced in Ireland and keep their markets intact.

• Is that a threat, Denis, to Irish farmers? His processor is no longer depending on the local farmer for milk, for example Glanbia with their huge operation in the US.

I will start by calling it a reality, rather than calling it a threat. I've always thought the Irish dairy farmer's security is ownership of their businesses, whether they be plc or co-op. They need an attachment to the organisation serving them - fortunately that is still there today.

• Do you think the co-op is a better route than the plc from the dairy farmers point of view?

Well if I thought that, Kerry would still be a co-op. I always felt that as one built value, the farmer got compensated through the products they sold through the co-op or plc, but if you could build value, it had to be done through a plc structure and that value could be released back to those who created it. Maybe you should ask the question of Kerry farmers, was that a great theory or not. All they ones I know, they are very happy with their plc shares.

• I presume it is a source of great pride for you personally to see relatively small family farms putting children through college, etc often with the help of plc shares?

I grew up in a Kerry where, if not poor, certainly there was nobody well off, either in towns or in the country. What would give you great pride was all the people in Kerry who had, or who acquired, plc shares. That being used for their betterment and the betterment of their lifestyles and their children's lifestyles over 30 years.

• You mentioned at the awards function the confidence of young people today in Kerry and Ireland generally. It is something that has changed, isn't it?

I think so. What were the two marks we put down - others can judge that. On the hand it was pioneering the concept of taking a co-op through to a plc, so as to put money into family farms and families in the county. The second was to give everybody confidence and to prove that, people working in the Kerry organisation were as good if not better than anybody else around the world. Both of those targets and ideals are still very much alive today. The money has stayed amongst those who have their plc shares and new generations growing up are not afraid anymore. They don't think somebody else is better than them - a lot of them go out there and say "we're the best". That's the start of success.

• Ireland today is a totally different country, isn't it, compared to when Kerry started to expand?

Absolutely. It's great to see it. There' no fear in people in their 20's and 30's today. Maybe they would be even better with some coaching. We got older and we did the coaching. You need to be in your 20's and 30' to have the energy and the enthusiasm and perhaps even the spirit of "we're the greatest".

• Are you confident about how Ireland as an economy is placed? There are Irish people doing business all over the world now

"Where ever you go, you meet them. That's the reality. Everybody talks about the economy slowing down, so let's see how this Ireland gets through the next four of five years. It will certainly never go back to the bad old days.

• What do Irish people have that allows them to "punch above their weight"?

It's like the Americans coming here for the last 30 - 40 years. They came for the irish hospitality and all the rest. What the Irish have, wherever they go in the world, is the ability to get on with others, no matter what nationality. We found that in Kerry - we could send the Irish lads or girls anywhere and they would do a wonderful job. We had many other nationalities who would do a wonderful job at home but we could never send outside of their own countries.

I see the Irish every year at trade fairs, entertaining customers late at night, but on the stands early next morning.

If you are up late at night in the bar, you are not necessarily drinking. You are entertaining others. The Irish were probably smarter than a lot of people - others thought the Irish people were spending all night in the bars - a lot of people forgot they were working, not enjoying themselves.

• How important is social networking?

Social networking is hugely important. The most important thing is that you must keep very fit - and that's both mentally and physically fit. You cannot do that if you are spending your night "on the town". Look after both physical and mental health and you will have no problem.

• During your travel, had you a routine to stay fit?

Yes, we used the hotel gym or swimming pool to keep ourselves fit. Otherwise you wouldn't survive.

• No alcohol?

Maybe at the weekend but never when we were working.

• Had you a routine to cope with all your air travel?

A routine to turn off, sleep and then start again.

• What are the key principles you use for time management?

I can still do it today - we still have a lot going on. People often ask me how I can switch from three or four different agenda on the one day. I can very easily switch agendas. You just pull down the curtain on the first one and stay totally focussed on whatever comes next. Turn off the mobile phone, let people catch up with it at the end of the day. People can get carried away with the laptop computer screen as well, but there are times when I wouldn't read an email for 48 hours, but if Mary thinks it's important enough she'll tell me. If not, I'll ignore them.

You will get nothing achieved if you do not have absolute concentration on the agenda while you are on that agenda.

• How do you overcome the natural human resistance to change?

You did the persuasion on the need for change. At the end of the day, if people still start in the way of change and you believe in it, then you just have to take out those people, whether they get paid off, retired, advised to go elsewhere or otherwise. If change is needed, you've got to find a way through it.

• How do you motivate people?

We still do the same thing today as we did five years ago or ten years ago. We spend a lot of time at the start of the year, working with people as to what are the key achievements that must be done in the following 12 months. We have plans that roll well beyond 12 months, but what is very important is to set the 12 month targets of what must be achieved by the individual. If we think in terms of 10 individuals, or a 100 individuals, if they targets are all steering in the right direction, then you will move the organisation on significantly. I always say the first two months of the financial year are most important - make sure that the organisation and certainly all the key individuals are absolutely focused on what must be achieved and then come back 6 months or 12 months later and tick the boxes as to whether it was done or not. Then repeat the exercise all over again.

And we always had bonus systems that reflected that. Instead of just sitting across the table and saying, `we think you did a good job', it was absolutely and scientifically done - boxes ticked.

• How do you motivate someone - be it yourself or anyone else - when money is no longer a driving force for them?

For some it does not have to be money, it can be just a sense a achievement. While we can't get inside the mind of every individual, we certainly have to know what makes each one tick. It's no different to the best managers in football getting the team to perform.

• What motivates you Denis? Is is pride in seeing a job done well?

Well, certainly there are two businesses today - Horse Racing Ireland and the Care Business. My involvement in HRI goes back 15 years. Certainly from seven or eight or nine years back it was to put the world to take a look at this small country as regards a nation that produces the best thoroughbred horses and had all the best people involved- trainers, owners, jockeys etc. We are a long way up that ladder - I wouldn't say we are top of the ladder yet - there are still a few rungs to be climbed. But it is recognised internationally that Ireland has made huge strides over seven or eight years.

In the Care business, when I finished in Kerry in January 2002, almost as a past time we had a very small care business with nursing homes in the UK and we just said, if we spent 30 years building Kerry, let's see if we can become the dominate Care provider, not just in the UK, but in the other English speaking countries in a far shorter period of time. We said we'd give it about ten years. Six years gone and we've come a long way.

• I notice you say the racing industry still has a few rungs to climb. You are obviously focused on getting to the very top?

In my mind, there is no doubt that we are not there yet. It's far more difficult than being in a public company or any company, you can make decisions and get things to happen. In racing, you have so many component parts, all interlinked, even if you interlinked all the parts in Ireland, you are also linked into the international stage, so racing is very complicated. Maybe that's where the great challenge is.

• One of your famous quotes is that 90% of the future is known and that a leader has to "sense the future". Is that still the case?

You must think in terms of `there is no good in planning for today'. If you are only planning for today, you will be looking at what others are doing at this point in time. If you get to that point, be quite sure that the smarter others have already moved the goalposts and have moved on. For ultimate success, you must be able to sense the future. This is what I think it will look like three, four or five years hence, and that is what you have to go for.

• Do you always plan in three to five year windows?

Yeah, that is where you ultimately make money. You make money when you are in a field of enterprise on your own that others haven't yet got to. Because when others get there, the profit margin goes out of it.

In Kerry, we were always very happy to have others trying to imitate Kerry, because we always knew that when they got to where we were, we would have moved on.

• And then you must be the best at what you do?

"It's possible to be the best at what you focus on, but it's making the right call that is absolutely key to it. If you make the wrong call, as to for example, what food products people will be eating a number of years down the road, you have wasted huge talent and time. That's no good for the organisation. If you get it right, you've huge success.

• Is it difficult to get people to buy into three to five year planning?

Not really. The important thing is that they are all part of it, so that they own their little piece of the plan. Everybody has their piece and they will all deliver, but make sure the vision is correct.

• And you found that capital is never limiting if the strategy and capability are present?

That's what I've always said and it's still as true as ever. There is always loads of money chasing opportunities. It's no different today, even at a time when money is being lost everywhere by banks.

• The banking issue, did you see that coming?

Everybody probably saw it coming when it was too late. In the case of sub-prime mortgages and derivatives, everybody is now putting up their hand and saying `we didn't understand it all'. We can all go back and look at what was happening - there was a boom in the construction industry fuelled by the fact that everybody could get a mortgage, even they had no capability to repay it. Those borrowings were then parcelled up into major bundles and sold to financial institutions all over the world. The financial institutions didn't understand what they were buying. The lesson is - if you don't understand it, don't invest. Maybe that is truer than ever now.

• What is the best advice you ever got?

We were up the walls in about 1972 or 1973 and a director of the Dairy disposal Company, Tim Dennehy, rang one night when we were working quite late. He said, `go home to bed, have a good night's sleep because you will look back tomorrow and say the night's sleep was more important that just putting in endless effort'. I'd say ever since, I've always managed a night's sleep and I've always managed to wake up with a much brighter head the next day.

• Are you an avid reader?

Yes, I devour a lot of reading material. I prefer reading to TV. I read everything. AT the moment I'm reading about my good friend Paddy Moriarty from Dingle who was head of the ESB.

• Any business book that you would recommend?

I don't think so. I've read them all, but I don't think any one gave me a specific edge. Read them and take what suits your particular circumstances.

• Where do you spend most of your time these days?

London is the headquarters of our Care business, although we have a significant presence in the USA. We are just opening our first Care village, as we call it, in Trim, County Meath in about six weeks.

• Do you plan to expand?

We'll see how County Meath goes first! It's always like the good or the bad old days of the dairy industry - I always found it easier in the UK or the US, than it was at home!

• Are you still operating at the same pace as you operated during your Kerry career?

On a day's work yes, but travel no. My travel now is principally the UK, Geneva and the USA, so I keep the distances far shorter.

• Play much golf?

I play a little, but not more than I used to. There is still plenty of work to be done.

• Have you a view on the "food versus fuel" debate?

Food will have to come first. The Government's priority is to keep people fed. In many countries people are starved or suffering malnutrition and there is a global requirement to produce adequate food. Biofuels are a success because they are heavily subsidised, particularly in the USA. It's probably a crazy way to go. There is something very wrong if you subsidise the production of biofuels and use it as a source of energy and leave the African countries starving. Somebody has to stand up some day and say `look, let's feed the poor first'.

Maybe the USA has become too isolated. If they want to be a world leader, they should also show generosity.

China is now a major force in the world economy...

We picked up on it about ten years ago and entered it initially through Hong Kong and then a manufacturing facility in Malaysia.

If you going to be competitive on a global basis, you have to source raw material coming out of China.

Labour is cheap. There is plenty of it and there will be for the decades ahead.

• How does Ireland position itself to compete?

You move through the stages. You could look at the example of Singapore. Singapore is a relatively high cost producing country, but what they have done is specialised in technology and as a financial centre. They play to their strengths. Ireland has been doing that, there is no point in crying over areas we can't compete in any more. You just have to play to your strengths.

• Are we over playing the negative tones on the economy?

I don't think so. It's facing up to reality. Maybe at time you are better off to have the reality before you react to it, rather than pretend it isn't happening.

• There will be some casualities?

All the smart developers didn't stay alone in Ireland during the good times - they moved to other countries. The ones who stayed in Ireland will go through lean times.